Oh , ladies and gentlemen , welcome back to privacy , please , camera . I be here with Gabe Gums . We're back at you with another show . How you ?
Speaker 2doing sir doing well . It's good to see you again this week . It's good to see you . It's good , it's so . First second full week into the new year . Mm-hmm , yeah , how's it treating ?
Speaker 1yourself . It's treating me well .
Speaker 2Yeah , can't complain a little cold down here in Florida , to goddamn cold down . Yeah , they move . I didn't move here for the .
Speaker 1Back now . We had wins yesterday . What was that ? I don't know . That's not the hurricane season was over . It's crazy top tornado warnings yeah . Just clean my yard for real . Oh , it's sticks and I need any leaves .
Speaker 2And it's nonsense . Whatever it's not going out there to rake it . It's 60 degrees . For Christ's sake , it's cold , it is .
Speaker 1It's cold , it's too cold .
Speaker 2everybody up north is like how they're mad at us right now . They salty . Take that salt and go put it on your snow , don't at me .
Speaker 1So , gabe , let's dive into some some hot , some hot topics . We'll shout out little shout out to our friend Jeff Joe kish . He did post something about this and we found this pretty fascinating . But if you guys aren't familiar with a company called X mode , it is basically a Data broker that sells your personal information . So apparently , what was it ? Ftc bands X mode from selling phone location data and orders firm to delete collected data . There's a Lot that we can unpack here , but what are your thoughts on this at first ?
Speaker 2so a Couple of more shout out . So , heidi , heidi sass did a really good write up on this . We'll post the . We should post the links .
Speaker 2This we will post links to both chefs chefs Just comments , and Heidi's Heidi's you know , too long , didn't read on it which is absolutely fabulous . My primary take on it is that this information was first or or , like some of the flags , first came about when this information was sold to , you know , the US government and and Defense agencies , and so I obviously have significant challenges with organizations selling our , our privacy data . But and Our government intentionally has these checks and balances built into it where you , where you're , your trust is on On their ability to actually do those things might be a different conversation , but , but there are ultimately checks and balances built in , and so this article is about the FTC . One of those checks and balances . Right , like Telling these organizations no , you cannot do that , like you cannot sell citizens , move location data in this way , like there's there's lots of other reasons behind it , and I think I do does a much better job of covering those things and I will .
Speaker 2But but the biggest challenge I see here , that and the largest set of questions to be asked , is Not around just companies like X mode , I just assume . Shut every single one of them down , because I can't think of value that they add to society and sometimes , sometimes , we should control the markets . Yes , don't at me again , folks . I don't want to hear any . You , you , you firm capitalist , libertarian socialists or anyone else for that I want your feedback on these topics .
Speaker 2I'm telling you that I do not believe that all organizations necessarily should exist just because they can make a profit . Right Like there's some business like verifier is not allowed to exist . Right Like , so we already regulate business like let's not pretend like we don't whoa yeah , you haven't hired Before just a once . But not normal . I mean I Long day , so I'm still stressed out . Been a long year , my my breakfast was cold , my coffee was hot , you know .
Speaker 1Listen , you can't get mad at Denny's for going to Denny's , you know , Sam .
Speaker 2That's true , but hitman work off hitman work .
Speaker 1It's where .
Speaker 2It's where it's okay , but but there's a larger privacy conversation to be had here about how our government which you know , by using a third-party data broker , is both a a nice clever way around , what , what is , is the rightful way to go about . You know , say subpoena , you know , getting a , even a visus , a pina to get Cameron's data . If there's this other legal entity that is allowed to just sell you this data , I , like the government , gets to circumvent those other checks and balances . And so I find it interesting also that the FTC , which is , you know , part of one of our legislative arms Um , is it ? I think it is , ooh , civics class , I don't recall . It's certainly not part of the executive branch , and the FTC doesn't make , it , doesn't make any rules . So it's not part of the legislative branch , right , oh ?
Speaker 1This was . I don't know if it was stated on , but this also bans Google and Apple From doing this . It's inclusion in apps yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , if I recall , google and Apple were told , like they told developers to stop , to stop using those modules also . Right , it does break the question whether or not you know Google or Apple sells that data also , like they are not data brokers . But do they sell that data ?
Speaker 1This could be an interesting question to our friend , our ethical hacker friend . It's names , it'll come to me . I want to maybe tag him and ask him about the situation , if he's ever digged into it . You know what I'm talking about , right .
Speaker 2I don't know . I mean , we have a lot of friends .
Speaker 1You should know all the names . I'm an ethical hacker .
Speaker 2A lot of our friends are ethical hackers You're going to have to be more specific .
Speaker 1Thomas Hansen . Which one Thomas ?
Speaker 2Perkins Thomas , I was going to say that . Robert , there's at least four or five that have been on the show . That's fair , that's fair .
Speaker 1I'll shout out to Thomas and all of our other friends yeah , you know the guy , the guy who acts the things , it breaks things . Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2That guy , that guy I mean you could have said the lady who acts the things but I still wouldn't have known , because we've had not less than five or six of those on the show . Also , that's true , we keep company with some ethical hackers . We've been known to cover it with some folks .
Speaker 1Well , the question before we go on what do you think the ban could influence ? The broader scope of all the other multi-billion dollar companies , like data broker industry ?
Speaker 2That's the thing for me . This is a bit of a red herring , if you would . This is a bit of a it's not a completely red herring . Let me answer your question . I think it sets a clear precedent and it draws a line in the sand that now , with anyone tiptoes across it , everyone can be held to the same standard . That's the great news there .
Speaker 2The red herring for me is like it tells me nothing about the intent behind why the government was collecting all that data . I can theorize until I'm blue in the face , and I'm certain we all can , because you can take it from the very innocent end of hey , we just wanted to track people that were already naughty to all the way to George Orwell . And collecting this data over time and minority report , I don't know what you start doing with it . It draws a commercial line in the sand . That's great , but I really want to revisit the part where it was being sold to my government . I want another response , if not from the FTC , from someone else , that doesn't just say this data can't be sold . I want to also say it cannot be purchased by these people , it cannot be consumed , gathered . I know I'm asking for things that might be .
Speaker 1Okay , let me ask you this , gabe , at that point how can we , as consumers , ensure that our location data is handled responsibly ? Is there a way that that is even Horses out of the barn . I know you carry around a phone that horses out of the barn .
Speaker 2The only genuine answer is you unplug from the matrix . How ?
Speaker 1do you like , there are secure phones Out of the barn .
Speaker 2There are secure phones you can purchase . There are secure phones that you can purchase . You want me to go ?
Speaker 1back to a flip phone , a dinosaur phone , what ?
Speaker 2is this yeah ?
Speaker 1Actually it might be good for our civilization . Have you looked outside lately ? Most people are just like it looks like they're playing Pokemon Go 24-7 . Yeah , that's for truth , and some actually might be , if it's still a thing .
Speaker 2I don't remember . If it is , I'm trying to remember there was Darknet Diaries . That was it Darknet Diaries , jack Reisider , if you've never checked out Darknet Diaries , you absolutely should . They cover a lot of hacking topics . It overlaps , obviously . They're in the security space . They did a great episode covering secure phones , some of the many different ones that were out there , some of the many problems that arose because of it , some of the reasons why some of those organizations ended up closing up shop .
Speaker 2But , to answer your question , if you don't want your location data to track , there's only one way it's to remove the means to do so . Now , if your question is more , how do you keep your location data from being sold , I think the answer is you have to join the movement of people that do not find it agreeable , right , right . What do I mean by that ? There are a lot of lay folks , people that likely don't listen to this podcast , that don't through no fault of their own , just don't take their own privacy as seriously , and so it's up to us , as privacy advocates , to drive that message home to anyone that will listen to us drawn on about it for more than five seconds , right , yes ?
Speaker 1Well , I think the FTC's action definitely underscores the importance of obviously going after these data brokers and holding them accountable Freaking data brokers and like what about policymakers ? And strengthening like privacy laws even further . Obviously , it takes time , but maybe this is a good step in the right direction . For sure , yeah , yeah , I don't know .
Speaker 2I approve of the decision overall , but again , I would turn our listeners definitely onto a couple of those posts . Go check out Heidi's posts and I love the way she opens it . I hate all capital letters . Data brokers and I'm right there with you . I am right there with you , sister . I can't . I detest data brokers . I don't even like using the word data brokers and I'm just going to refer to them as absolute data thieves . Some of you know them , some of you know them colloquially as data brokers , but they are data they're data traffickers , so are they like pirates ?
Speaker 2I like pirates .
Speaker 1Oh yeah , I do too , I'm a pirate . I don't know , though , would you really want to be a pirate though ?
Speaker 2Short answer yes .
Speaker 1They were pretty dirty .
Speaker 2I mean , but they had a code of conduct , that's true , a strict code of conduct .
Speaker 1You know what's funny ? I just thought about this . This whole scenario is something that we've brought up in the past and it goes back to where do we strike a healthy balance between technological advancement and protecting user privacy ?
Speaker 2It's getting harder every day . It's technology advances , it gets harder , and technology outpaces the law . It always has , it always will by design , I should add , which is okay . You don't want to be too close on the heels , because it's hard to tell what the impacts of some of those decisions might be Now is it by human design ? Or machine design .
Speaker 1Or artificial intelligence .
Speaker 2It's by human design .
Speaker 1It's by human design .
Speaker 2I like pirates . As far as we know , they also value equality , right , like data brokers don't value equality . They see our data . They're after our loot , yeah they're after our loot . They're after our booty . They're trying to get to our booty .
Speaker 1Shout out to booty who doesn't love those ? My kid still eats those . That's good .
Speaker 2I'm glad that's where that went , but shout out to booty .
Speaker 1You know what I'm talking about the cheese puffs , the cheese slits .
Speaker 2I understand I understand . I was just agreeing . Shout out to booty .
Speaker 1Shout out to booty , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2Totally pirate Again . I love pirates .
Speaker 1I'm a big pirate fan , Big pirate fan Shout out to Johnny Dent All right , there , it is . There it is . Any last thoughts on this game ? Anything , no .
Speaker 2Again , I do really want to give credit to some of the folks who spend their time like , steeped in the law and the practice of it . So definitely go check out Heidi's breakdown of this . We'll post that . Have a look at Jeff's comments . But I invite a larger conversation around why this data was allowed to be sold , because that's just an obvious circumvention of a collection of citizen data that just shouldn't have happened .
Speaker 1Because who cares ? They're getting money .
Speaker 2That's accurate , but this is the classic , the report of buried the lead on this . For me , they really buried the lead on this .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah . Well , it's super interesting . We'll keep track of this , but , gabe , thank you sir .
Speaker 2Always , always , last shout out before we go we're still launching some new stuff , right Like this digital life coming to you . Soon We'll be announcing a whole bunch of new things . We got a new domain , we got new shows , we've got new sponsors , we've got new guests . It's a whole new world . A whole new world .
Speaker 1Oh yeah , and this musical number is brought to you by . I'm just kidding .
Speaker 2But seriously Data thieves , data thieves .
Speaker 1Who is now known as . Just so you know what was it Outlogic , outlogic .
Speaker 2That's right If you see them before it comes out . That's their new name people , so look out for it . Outlogic Look out . Keep an eye out for that , stay away , stay away , stay away .
Speaker 1Oh yeah , stay away , but we're coming for you . But stay away , stay away , stay away , stay away , stay away . All right , listeners , we'll see you next week . Thanks for tuning in Right on .
Speaker 2Bye bud .
Speaker 1Thanks for tuning in , you too , over there here Up here we will stand . There are a lot of stuff out there . All right , everybody read it . My name's .